The Gold Connection: A Gold Humanism Honor Society Podcast
In Episode 4, our Director of Program Initiatives and GHHS, Louisa Tvito, has a conversation with Dr. Olapeju Simoyan, Executive Director of Research at Caron Treatment Centers and Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Drexel University College of Medicine.
Dr. Olapeju shares her many experiences with the Gold Foundation, from participating as a dentist-turned-medical student in her first White Coat Ceremony to her Gold Student Summer Fellowship to being selected as a Gold Humanism Scholar for the Harvard Macy Institute and winning the Leonard Tow Humanism in Medicine Award. She also received special Gold support to start a literary journal at the Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine called Black Diamonds.
Over her career in medicine, Dr. Simoyan has been involved in no fewer than five of the Gold Foundation’s programs. Dr. Simoyan is board certified in family medicine, addiction medicine and dental public health and is a member of the Gold Humanism Honor Society. She uses music, writing and photography to inspire others. She plays several musical instruments and has combined her interest in writing photography into two published photo books.
We hope you enjoy this wonderful introduction to Dr. Simoyan and so many of the Gold programs.
Show Notes
“I have one life and one chance to make it count for something… My faith demands that I do whatever I can, wherever I am, whenever I can, for as long as I can with whatever I have to try to make a difference.” – President Jimmy Carter
Dr. Simoyan on Twitter: @pejune6
Black Diamonds, Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine’s arts and literary magazine. The 2019 issue includes the essay (pages 30-32) by Vanessa Thiel, MD, MPH, who was a medical student at the time and is about to start her pediatrics residency at Nationwide Children’s Hospital in Columbus, Ohio.
Gold Foundation programs mentioned on the podcast:
Gold Student Summer Fellowships
Gold Humanism Scholars at the Harvard Macy Institute Program for Health Professions Educators
Leonard Tow Humanism in Medicine Award
Transcript
Dr. Hellen Ransom
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Gold Connection, where we share stories of humanism in healthcare, as well as tools and lessons for students, clinicians, and leaders. The Gold Connection is produced by the Gold Humanism Honor Society, a program of The Arnold P. Gold Foundation. My name is Hellen, and I’m your host.
The Gold Foundation’s programs are vast. They span from the very first days of medical school and nursing school with the White Coat Ceremony all the way through honors that recognize decades of humanistic leadership. This year, for example, we presented the Gold Foundation’s National Humanism in Medicine Medal to 3 distinguished healthcare leaders: Dr. Anthony Fauci, Dr. Wayne Riley, and Dr. Eric Topol.
The span includes the Gold Humanism Honor Society, Gold Student Summer Fellowships, the Hope Babette Tang Humanism in Healthcare Essay Contest for nursing and medical students, the Gold Humanism Scholars at the Harvard Macy Institute, the Leonard Tow Awards given to faculty and graduating medical students – and much more.
Whew! It’s a lot
And that’s why we were especially excited to talk today with a physician who has been involved in no fewer than FIVE of these Gold Foundation programs: Dr. Olapeju Simoyan.
Dr. Simoyan is a professor in the department of psychiatry at Drexel University College of Medicine. As a medical student at Penn State, she was awarded a Gold Student Summer Fellowship. She is a GHHS member, a former chapter advisor, a Gold Humanism Scholar at the Harvard Macy Institute, a Leonard Tow Awardee, and she received special support to start a literary journal at Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine, called Black Diamonds.
Our Director of the Gold Humanism Honor Society and Program Initiatives, Louisa Tvito, sat down with Dr. Simoyan to learn more…
Louisa Tvito
Hi, Dr. Simoyan, thank you so much for being here with us today. As Hellen mentioned, my name is Louisa Tvito. I’m the Director of Program Initiatives and the Gold Humanism Honor Society here at The Arnold P. Foundation. And I’m thrilled to be speaking with Dr. Simoyan today about her extensive work with the Gold Foundation and her really incredible career. So thank you, Dr. Simoyan, for being here with us today.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Oh, thank you so much for having me. My pleasure to be here, Louisa.
Louisa Tvito
So to start with, I was hoping you could tell me a little bit about your journey as a physician and an educator. What drew you to medicine? Did you always know you wanted to be a doctor?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Oh, good question. You know, I grew up, like a lot of other people, wanting to see the world and, you know, do a lot of good and that sort of thing. But I wanted to, like, do so many other things, too. Right. So so I sort of wanted to be a doctor, but I wanted to be a lot of other things, too. And I had the impression when I was a lot younger that I might not have time to pursue my other interests if I if I became a doctor.
So I initially actually became a dentist right out of high school. I finished high school at the tender age of 15, and six years later I was a dentist. And then after doing that for a while, I was, you know, still wanting to save the world and do more, so I went to Johns Hopkins, got a master of public health, and at that point in time, I was thinking that I probably would end up in an international organization, you know, really prepared to save the world.
And that didn’t really pan out. So I did some work in dental public health and eventually figured out that I really just needed to go to medical school. And that’s what I ended up with. And I graduated from Penn State College of Medicine in Hershey in 2006. So it’s been a long journey. It’s been a long journey.
Louisa Tvito
Yeah. And humanism in health care and the Gold Foundation have been pretty consistent throughout your experience. Can you tell me about what resonates about with humanism in healthcare and how this has sort of been maintained as a through line throughout?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
So that’s a good question. That’s a good question. I think that it’s really important for us to remember, like, why we went into medicine in the first place. You know, there’s a lot of talk about burnout and how the erosion of empathy as trainees progressed through medical education. And there are so many things I could talk about, about what motivates me. And I was I was thinking about this. I recalled a quote from former President Jimmy Carter that I came across recently.
And I just like to read it because I think it just about sums it up for me as well. So it says, “I have one life, one life and one chance to make it count for something. My faith demands that I do whatever I can, wherever I am, whenever I can, for as long as I can, with whatever I have to try to make a difference.” So that was former President Jimmy Carter, but I think it just about sums it up for me as well.
You know, I have one life to live and I really have to make it count.
Louisa Tvito
Absolutely. And so with The Arnold P. Gold Foundation, can you tell me how this relationship started? What was your first? I mean, and we’ll go into this in a little bit more depth, but can you tell me what your first project was with the Gold Foundation? Where did that start?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
OK, so I first remember interacting with the foundation at our White Coat Ceremony. So we had as part of our orientation at medical school, we had this White Coat Ceremony. It was the very first week and it was sponsored by The Arnold Gold Foundation. So that’s my first specific memory of having an interaction with a program that was organized or was sponsored by the foundation. And sometime during that year, I found out about the summer research fellowships and I was interested in doing a summer project.
So I applied and received a research fellowship from the foundation. And that project was basically looking at reasons for missed appointments among patients at a family medicine residency clinic. And unfortunately, because of the time it took to get all the permissions and all of that, I wasn’t able to complete the project during that summer, but I did eventually complete it. And I got to present the results at a conference. And actually the family medicine residency program actually gave me a medical research award for that project.
So. So that was nice. That was an honor and it was a learning experience as well in terms of all the hoops you have to jump through to do even what was at the time a pretty small research project. But it was a learning experience. And then many years later, as a faculty member at the Commonwealth Medical College, which is now the Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine, I had a student mentee who applied for one of the research fellowships.
And I was able to he got it. And I was able to mentor him to his project. So that was good.
Louisa Tvito
It’s full circle!
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Exactly.
Louisa Tvito
For our listeners that don’t know, Summer Fellowship is either a service project or a research project that our students can do between academic years over the summer. And we’ve had some pretty incredible work. And like you’re saying, it is an opportunity for students to grow and get their feet wet in what might be interesting to them and often start their time in their work and service in this capacity. So can you tell me a little bit about your experience with the Gold Humanism Honor Society?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
OK, so I had graduated by the time I was formally inducted into the society. So it was not until later when I was on faculty at the Geisinger School of Medicine that I engaged with the Honor Society and I as an advisor. So. In my advising capacity, I I was able to to work with the students, they were expected to conduct a project, you know, they would come up, they were supposed to come up with a project and that they would carry out.
So that was meant to promote humanism in medicine. And so a couple of years ago, the students decided to have an essay competition that they called Glimmers of Gold. (They had one specifically for school. I think that that might be a larger initiative, but they had one specifically for for the students at our institution.) And they were given a prompt and asked to submit essays that spoke to the humanistic aspects of medicine. So we had that competition.
And then the winning essays were chosen, were published in Black Diamonds, which was our literary journal, which I think we’ll be talking about later. But, you know, I thought I would actually read just a short paragraph from one of those essays because I think we could learn a lot from this. So this was an essay by Vanessa Thiel, who has actually just graduated now. So she’s a doctor, Dr. Thiel, now. And at this time, she was a medical student and she was writing about her experience being diagnosed with hypothyroidism as medical students.
“We often rattle off a list of symptoms without even considering the consequences to the patient. These words are no longer products of thought, but rather reflexes, lists now imprinted on our minds after endless hours of study. As we go through these lists, let us remember that these symptoms are more than just that. They are experiences, memories, emotions felt by the patient. Symptoms are not just tremors, palpitations or weight loss. They include confusion, frustration and fear.
“They are moments in time that may stick in a person’s mind forever. Similarly, a disease is more than just a diagnosis. It is an event and often a realization of one’s own vulnerability. Remembering this can help us to understand, connect and truly empathize with our patients.”
Louisa Tvito
Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I think to be in the position as a patient, to feel it, to be it’s a whole new level of having empathy for your patients. And so much of that is what we’re talking to our students about and to listen and to be, you know, deeply empathetic. And sometimes it takes being that in that position.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Exactly. Exactly.
Louisa Tvito
So I would love to speak about your experience with the Harvard Macy Institute. The Harvard Macy Institute Program for Educators in the Health Professions is a highly interactive, faculty development program that trains participants in innovative methods to teach and assess learners. And the Gold Foundation provides small scholarship, five thousand dollars for each scholar, and you were selected. So can you tell us about that experience, what your work was?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
OK, first of all, I have to tell you about how I even found out about the scholarships because I wasn’t looking for a scholarship to attend the program. I was just looking for information about the program. And I contacted a very good friend of mine who’s also a physician and who had been through the program, the Harvard Macy Program, and told me about it. So I just contacted her because I was interested in applying. And then she just out of the blue, just sent me the most recent email that she had received from the Harvard Macy Program, which happened to be an announcement about the Gold scholarships.
So that’s how I got to know about the scholarships. And it was like, well, I guess I meant to apply for this, right?
Louisa Tvito
Sometimes that’s fate.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
That’s exactly. Yeah, things happen for a reason. So I applied and fortunately was given the scholarship to attend. And the Harvard Macy Program was just an awesome experience. It truly is a global community of scholars. You know, it was, you know, an amazing opportunity to interact with scholars not just from all over the country, but from all over the world as well.
And my project was what I called my “Mental to Dental Project.” So as somebody who started out as a dentist before becoming a physician and who now focuses on behavioral medicine, I’m acutely aware of the way our healthcare [separates] oral health from the rest of general health – the same thing with mental health. And I really wanted to emphasize the importance of having a holistic approach to healthcare in general and also to our patients, our individual patients, because I think it’s so important.
It’s interesting that people, for example, if you tell students, medical students that they need to learn about the eyes and the ears, you don’t have them questioning you. You don’t have them saying, well, I’m not going to be an ophthalmologist or I’m not going to be an ENT doctor. Why do I need to learn about that? But somehow when it comes to the mouth, it’s like, “Well, that’s the dentist job.”
And we need to realize that, well, the mouth is part of the body, you know, and I need to fix the rest of the body. So I developed case studies that highlighted some of these connections that we used in the case-based learning sessions with the first-year medical students. And I’ll give one example. Like an elderly patient with altered mental status, for example: We’re taught to think about the possibility of infection being the cause, the underlying cause, or maybe it’s a urinary tract infection, you know, but it could also be an oral infection, you know. Did anybody think to look in the patient’s mouth? So that’s one example, and there’s so many others that I mean, I don’t have time to go into it, but I was really trying to emphasize the need for a holistic approach to our patients, to health care, you know, so mental, dental, you know, it’s all connected.
You know, it’s all one patient, you know, and their mouth isn’t separate from the rest of the body. You know, the mental health impacts their overall health as well. So that was that was what my project was about. And I had the opportunity to present the results at an international conference later on. So that was overall a very good experience. I’m still in touch with the people that I met at the Harvard Macy Program.
And I just think it’s a great opportunity for anybody that’s interested in learning more about, you know, about educating health professionals. And I’m grateful to the Gold Foundation for sponsoring me to that institute.
Louisa Tvito
Yeah, I mean, to hear your ongoing relationship with them and this network of, you know, of learners and educators, and I feel like it makes your experience rich and makes your interactions the same. And the project is fascinating to really think of, as humanists, we’re talking about looking at the person as a whole and not piecemeal. And so it’s an interesting approach.
I also I know we spoke a little bit about your literary journal work, and I was hoping you could share a bit about the Presidential Grant that you’ve received from the Gold Foundation and how that impacted your work and even work that you did after the work on this initial journal.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
OK, well, I’ll start by telling you how I got started with this idea of a literary journal for a medical community. And I went to Penn State College of Medicine in Hershey. They have a strong tradition of promoting the medical humanities. It was an integral part of our curriculum there. And we had a literary journal called Wild Onions. It was a student-led initiative. And each year, a fourth-year medical student got to be the editor. So as a fourth-year medical student, I got to be the editor of Wild Onions.
So that was an awesome experience. And when I got to my faculty position at well, again, what was then the Commonwealth Medical College, now Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine, I thought it would be a great idea to have a similar initiative there. And it was a brand new medical school at the time. There were a lot of other priorities, but we had enough interest among the students. There were several students who were interested in the arts and music.
And so there was a student interest group in the arts and music. And when I suggested this to them, you know, there was quite a bit of interest. We started working on it. We needed funding at least to get the first issue off the ground. So, again, because of my relationship with the Gold Foundation, I thought I had a pretty good chance of getting some funding from the foundation. So I applied and fortunately we did get seed funding to start this project up.
So The Arnold Gold Foundation helped us to publish the very first issue of what became known as Black Diamonds, and the name Black Diamonds was chosen by the medical students. That was a reference to the rich coal mining history of Scranton and the northeastern Pennsylvania region. And so we applied for the grant in 2011, and it took a while to get everything going and get the first issue ready. But we were able to at least get it published in time for the charter class’ graduation, which was in 2013.
And as time went on, we had to get funding from another source and eventually, the school decided that it was enough of a priority that they put it in the budget. And so from 2013, we had the first issue, the second issue, 2015. And after that, it’s pretty much been published every year. And I had the privilege of being the founding editor in chief, and that’s a role I played even up till last year, even though last year I had actually left, but I still worked on the issue.
There was so much going on in the country and I felt like it on some level, it gave me a platform to speak to what was going on in the country in terms of the pandemic, in terms of the racial tensions. And, yeah, it gave me a chance to really address some of those issues.
Louisa Tvito
I mean, we’re seeing that the use of art and music, but drawing and painting as as a means of expression during this challenging time, and especially doctors who really need an outlet and very so academic and, you know, just always in the hospital and busy and being able to utilize the humanities as a means of expression and to take some respite is critical. And we’ve really seen the impact of that.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Yeah. And thank you for mentioning that, because I just realized that I didn’t talk about what the journal was actually about. So, yes, it really was an opportunity for for students, for faculty staff members to express themselves artistically, to share about their experiences, to write poetry, to share their artwork. You know, and, you know, we talk about burnout, and like you just said, you know, it’s really important to have outlets.
And I think that this really created an outlet for our students in particular, but even for staff and faculty as well to do something that was outside of medicine but somewhat related to medicine, where we could talk about our experiences with patients, our experiences as patients, we could talk about what we were learning, what we were learning, what we were teaching, you know, and we could just share artwork. It was just a very nice tool for people to express themselves and to do some self reflection at times and to just share their talents with the rest of the world.
Louisa Tvito
And is this work accessible to our listeners? Is it something that they can listen to or read?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
So Black Diamonds is available online. It is available online. Is there a way we can share?
Louisa Tvito
Yes, we can share in our show notes we can share. Sure, if you want to pass that along, because I know one of my favorite parts of my job is being able to read the submissions for our essay contest and to connect. You know, it’s incredible how you can connect to somebody through their art and their writing and me, who is not on in the hospital, not in the setting, to be able to relate to people through their experience is one that makes me feel even more passionately about this work.
So I think that would be wonderful to share.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Yes. Yes. The most recent issues are available online, so I’d be happy to share the link with you. Yeah, great.
Louisa Tvito
And to me, it’s really evident. But I know you were recognized for the Leonard Tow Humanism Humanism in Medicine award, and I want to hear about what that meant to you and how you were selected. I mean, it is clear to me that this is humanism is in every breath you take and in every patient you treat. So can you tell me a little bit about that?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Oh, thank you. That was such an honor. It really was such an honor to be recognized with that award as a graduating medical student. But I’ll start by talking about how I was nominated. So I was in my fourth year of medical school. I was in India on an international rotation. So it was February of 2006 and graduation was in May. So I was in India. I had initially spent some time with a former classmate from my master of public health program and then spent most of the time at an institution called the Christian Medical College in Vellore.
And so I happened to be at a computer. I don’t even remember exactly what I was doing. And I emailed one of my professors at Hershey, and then he responded and asked me to send my CV. So it became obvious that he was the one that nominated me for the award. And you know, when the awards ceremony came, it was the day before graduation. And I remember they just sent us a letter saying we were getting an award.
They didn’t necessarily tell you which award you were getting, but they informed us ahead of time. So we’ll be there, you know. And so I was there with my parents. My parents were still alive at the time. And I remember after my name was announced and I had collected and received the award and gone back, I remember my dad saying, “Yeah, when they were describing her, you know, I just thought, that sounds like my daughter, you know.”
And then another classmate, most of the most of the awards were for academic performance, but this was for humanism in medicine. So one of my classmates who was there said, you know, she looked at me and she said, “That was the most significant award of all.”
It’s you know, it was it was such an honor and humbling at the same time.
But I have to go back to what I was doing at the time.
At the time this nomination process started, because I was at this school in India, a medical school called the Christian Medical College that was started by an American missionary named Ida Scudder. And her story is so incredible. I don’t have time to go into all the details of her story. But she had been the daughter of American missionaries, so she had grown up in India and she was never going to be a missionary. She didn’t want to have anything to do with it.
And at some point in time, she had come back to the States, but she went to India to visit her parents and while she was there, in one night, three women in labor died, not because there was no physician, but because there was no female physician. Ida Scudder’s father was a physician, so her father could have treated these people. But in that part, in that locality, in that part of India, the men would not allow a male doctor to attend to their wives.
They would rather let her die. And that happened. Three women died in labor in one night for lack of a female physician. So Ida took that as a call from God to do something about it. So this was somebody who was never going to be a missionary. And I don’t really think she planned to be a doctor either, prior to that. But she came back to the States and went to medical school at a time when it was very unusual, even in America, for women to attend medical school.
And then she went back to India and started a medical school for women. And did such amazing work there and, you know, eventually they started accepting men, but it was originally meant for women, to address that need. And she did such amazing work. And, you know, and so this medical school is there as a result of the work that she started. And it’s one of the best medical schools in India. So I was there at that institution learning about all of this, all of this wonderful work and seeing, you know, the fruits of her labor and all the people who supported her and worked with her and see what they were still doing, all the amazing projects and, you know, and outreach programs that they had, you know, and, you know, and it’s like, what have I done?
What have I done to deserve an award? You know? But I look at people like Ida Scudder, you know, and I’m inspired, you know, and, you know, and I don’t have to do what she did, you know, I don’t have to do what anybody else did. I just have to do, you know, do my own part, you know, like, you know, to my own part, you know, make the impact that I can make, you know, in my own little corner of the world.
Louisa Tvito
Absolutely, and, you know, and also, I think getting that award at this point in your career changes the trajectory in a way, and it plants the seed of, “I’m acknowledged as a humanistic physician, and I need to practice this.” It kind of solidifies those characteristics in a way, although they are deeply innate. But I think just as the Student Summer Fellowship Service and Research Project says, “This is what I want to do. I want to be, I want to do service.”
You know, it is kind of is consistent in their career following that because the seed was planted at this point, and so, as Dr. Gold said. And as this award was recognized by your peers as the most significant one. I mean, of course, scientific excellence in working and being an incredible practitioner and understanding, being able to diagnose well, but also being able to listen well and care well and empathize well. So it really is I think this has been consistent in your career as being sort of the duality of really incredible, being an incredible clinician, but an incredible healer.
Dr. Simoyan, this has been really a wonderful conversation. What am I missing? Did I miss a Gold connection? I think, there’s been so many I want to be able to capture all of them.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
No, I don’t think you missed anything. I do want to add that, again, speaking to the Leonard Tow Humanism in Medicine Award. I have the certificate nicely framed sitting in my office. It’s right behind me here. I mean, I have some certificates here in my office, but I really don’t have enough room for all of it, to be honest. But you know what? My diplomas from medical school, public health school and dental school, guess where they are? They’re in, I believe they’re in a suitcase in my basement.
Seriously, they’re not even framed.
Louisa Tvito
Wow.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
But the Humanism in Medicine Award is here framed in my office. So I think that says a lot. I’m not saying that my certificates from all those institutions don’t matter. I do need them, but they don’t have to be hanging on my wall.
Louisa Tvito
And I think that that’s why, you know, the lapel pin, the pin really speaks volumes to speak to patients and say, I’ve been recognized for being a humanistic physician. And of course, my mission is to care for you well, but also to be a thoughtful, gentle physician. And so that’s pretty incredible. Any advice that you would give to other people interested in becoming more involved in the Gold Foundation?
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Oh, yeah, I think it’s a great organization to be involved with, and I think that a good place to start would be the website. There’s a lot of resources there. If you have ideas for projects, even if the foundation isn’t able to support you financially, they might be able to connect you with other people who have similar interests. There’s a big push for the inclusion of medical humanities in medical education now.
So I think that there’s a lot of opportunity, and I think the Gold Foundation is a good place to start if you want to connect with other people who have similar interests and similar passions. And, yes, and I’m happy to talk to anybody who wants to connect with me as well and share ideas. And right now here we’re talking about developing a medical humanities curriculum for residents, because most of the programs, at least the ones that we know of, are in medical schools.
And it’s much easier to, the educational curriculum for medical students is much easier to control then the curriculum for residents. So it’s a challenge. But we’re looking into ways of addressing these issues and making sure that we expose our residents and our fellows to these important topics.
Louisa Tvito
Absolutely, yeah, and I do I appreciate that you were, as a foundation, we’re always happy to support these types of projects and to be an ear. And as you said about your experience at the Harvard Macy Institute, where you have this network now of colleagues that are like-minded and that you can sort of rely on for different pieces of your growth as an educator, we are happy to be that in the realm of humanism in healthcare.
And so we are absolutely available. And thank you for it’s very gracious to be able to your willingness to connect with others. And we can make your, you know, a social media handle or an email available so that people can connect with you.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Sure.
Louisa Tvito
This has been really wonderful. I really you know, these opportunities to speak with folks just like you makes this job so, so special. And so thank you for taking the time to sit down with us and to share your experience with our listeners and our other people in the Gold community, because it’s inspiring.
And I think, you know, you’ve made it a consistent part of who you are. And you said that, you know, you wanted to save the world, you wanted to change the world and look what you’ve done. You know, beyond the connection with the Gold Foundation, you’ve just made it part of your identity. And we’re so grateful for that and honored to have been able to recognize such an incredible physician.
Dr. Olapeju Simoyan
Oh, thank you so much, Louisa. I really, really appreciate being here. I appreciate the opportunity to share my experiences and to highlight all the different things that the Gold Foundation can do. Yes, I really appreciate this opportunity.
So thank you for having me. And you guys are doing such a wonderful work. Keep up the good work. I know that saving the world, I mean, it literally might not be a realistic goal, but again, we’re making a difference, you know, whatever way we can. So let’s keep doing that. Thank you so much for all you do and thank you for having me.
Dr. Hellen Ransom
Thank you for listening. And I hope that you enjoyed our conversation with Dr. Simoyan. And as always, until next time, take care.
